“There’s no rule of law that’s going to get us out of where we are,” says author and organizer Andrea Ritchie. In this episode of Movement Memos, Ritchie and host Kelly Hayes discuss the role of criminalization in authoritarian and fascist regimes, and why “we need more outlaws” and less fetishization of “law and order.”

Music by Hatamitsunami & Pulsed .

Kelly Hayes: Welcome to “Movement Memos,” a Truthout podcast about organizing, solidarity, and the work of making change. I’m your host, writer and organizer, Kelly Hayes. Today, we’re discussing the role of criminalization in authoritarianism and fascism, and why clinging to the rule of law in this messy moment in history is a catastrophic mistake. We will be hearing from Andrea Ritchie, a co-founder of Interrupting Criminalization

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