America’s $38 trillion national debt isn’t really because of bad math or budgeting, top economist Barry Eichengreen says. It isn’t because of interest rates, or an aging population, or even runaway spending, necessarily.

The problem is us. Or more specifically, he told Fortune in an exclusive interview, it’s a polarized political system that reflects, then amplifies, our divisions.

“The United States has forgotten the importance of fiscal discipline,” the Berkeley professor of nearly 40 years told Fortune . “Neither party is serious about trying to cut the budget deficit. There is lots of hand-waving and rhetoric, but very little meaningful action.”

Eichengreen expanded in conversation with Fortune on his new Peterson Foundation essay that traces 24 uninterrupted years of risi

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