On the Friday, November 21, 2025 episode of The Excerpt podcast: Dick Cheney shaped the GOP for decades, from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to the party’s internal fight over Donald Trump. USA TODAY Washington Bureau Chief Susan Page explains how Cheney gained his power, why he embraced controversial policies and what led him to support Kamala Harris in 2024.

Hit play on the player below to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript beneath it. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text.

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Liz Cheney:

Though he was inspired to service by President Kennedy, Dick Cheney became a Republican, but he knew that bonds of party must always yield to the single bond we share as Americans. For him, a choice between defense of the Constitution and defense of your political party was no choice at all.

Dana Taylor:

Former Vice President Dick Cheney, who died on November 3rd of complications from pneumonia and cardiac and vascular disease, was remembered this week during a National Cathedral memorial. Most known for his support of the Iraq War where no weapons of mass destruction were ever found, he also earned a reputation as a fierce detractor when it came to President Donald Trump.

Dick Cheney:

He tried to steal the last election using lies and violence to keep himself in power after the voters had rejected him.

Dana Taylor:

What will his legacy be? Hello, and welcome to USA TODAY's, The Excerpt. I'm Dana Taylor. Today is Friday, November 21st, 2025. Despite having never held the highest office in the land, there was a time when the Republican Party was Dick Cheney's party. Here to break down the complicated legacy of the former vice president is USA TODAY Washington Bureau Chief Susan Page. It's so good to have you, Susan.

Susan Page:

It's so good to be with you.

Dana Taylor:

First, who spoke at the former Vice President's memorial service?

Susan Page:

Former President, George W. Bush gave a eulogy there, definitely one of the big speeches for the event. His daughter, Liz Cheney, who had succeeded him as a member of Congress from Wyoming, also spoke. Pete Williams, who had been one of Dick Cheney's top aides when he was defense secretary, and then later went on to a career as a journalist at NBC, also spoke. We heard from his doctor, Jonathan Reiner. His doctor was important in Dick Cheney's life. He was 84 when he died, which is remarkable given a long history of heart trouble that he had. And we also heard from some of his grandchildren.

Dana Taylor:

When Cheney died, there were questions about how the GOP establishment, old and new, would respond. How have they?

Susan Page:

Well, from former members of Congress, from former Bush administration officials, we heard accolades. From current leaders in the Republican Party, not so much. President Trump said nothing after Dick Cheney's death. The Trump administration did order flags at federal buildings lowered to half staff, but of course that is required by law. And we saw the current vice president, JD Vance, make a deprecating comment about Cheney shortly after his death. This is no longer the Republican Party that Dick Cheney played such a big role in as White House chief of staff, as a member of Congress, as a member of the cabinet, and finally of course, eight years as vice president.

Dana Taylor:

Susan, tell me a little bit about Dick Cheney, the man, and how he landed in the world of politics.

Susan Page:

Dick Cheney was a Westerner. He grew up in Wyoming. He was a college dropout at one point, seemed a little at loose ends. Then he married Lynne Cheney, his wife, who set him straight. She was a very disciplined person from then, at that point and forever. He went to graduate school at the University of Wisconsin seeking a Ph.D. never got the Ph.D. He got an internship in Washington, and there he found his path working first as a congressional aide and then as the youngest White House chief of staff ever working for President Ford.

Dana Taylor:

There are no similarities between Dick Cheney and Donald Trump when it comes to style. Trump craves the limelight. Cheney did not. But is there a direct line between Cheney and the neoconservative movement of the 90s and the nationalist, anti-globalist agenda that swept Trump into office?

Susan Page:

Well, Cheney definitely saw a big US role in the world. And for evidence of that, just look at the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that he championed and was an architect of. And it was a reaction to those wars, those long wars, that helped fuel the America First movement that Donald Trump became a spokesman for. A desire to no longer be the world's policeman, to tend to fires closer to home. Now, it's interesting that in office, during his second term, President Trump has taken a more aggressive attitude toward the world in the Western Hemisphere, in the Middle East, and elsewhere. But it's not exactly... They're really different traditions that you see with the GOP now and the one that you saw then with Dick Cheney.

Dana Taylor:

Cheney led an effort to expand executive authority. Did he lay the groundwork for some of what the Trump administration is seeking to do?

Susan Page:

Yes, absolutely. He started this expanded powers of the executive branch that we've seen really blossom during the Trump years. He believed in an aggressive, energetic, and powerful executive branch. And even though he was a former member of Congress himself, and in fact a member of the House Republican leadership for a time, he really saw the presidency, the executive branch, as the one that should be making policy, executing foreign policy in various ways that we've seen really come to greater fruition during the Trump years.

Dana Taylor:

I want to turn now to the cultural backlash of the Bush-Cheney era with the drawn out wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Do you think that helped fuel some of the distrust in government that's been a hallmark of the MAGA movement?

Susan Page:

The great failure of the Iraq War was that it was waged and sold to Americans on the grounds that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction that threatened the United States. It was not sold to Americans as some kind of nation building exercise halfway around the world. But after the war began, and as it went on year after year, the conclusion was inevitable that there were not weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The war had been sold under false pretenses. And I think that did erode public trust in the government, and certainly eroded public trust in the intelligence agencies.

Dana Taylor:

Dick Cheney, along with former President George W. Bush and former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, will of course be remembered for the war on terror. Tell me about that legacy.

Susan Page:

Well, the most controversial part of that legacy is Cheney's support for what was then called enhanced interrogation techniques on suspected terrorists. And this is something that many Americans and many of the world later decided amounted to torture. There were some who accused Dick Cheney and others behind these techniques of war crimes. He took the most aggressive possible stance when it came to investigating terror threats, including unprecedented surveillance of Americans. Dick Cheney was never apologetic about his approach to this. He said that they had helped keep America safe, and he said it was victorious in preventing another 9/11 type terror attack on the United States on his watch.

Dana Taylor:

His daughter, Liz Cheney, has been a vocal critic of President Trump. She's supported former Vice President Kamala Harris and her presidential run against Trump. Ultimately, Dick Cheney, the former backbone of the Republican Party, did the same. What reasons did he give for that move?

Susan Page:

How extraordinary was that? To see Dick Cheney, who was not just a Republican, he was a conservative Republican. He was a leader of a conservative Republican Party, come out and endorse Kamala Harris for president and say he was going to vote for her. And his reason was not so much that he supported Kamala Harris and her policies, it was that he said Donald Trump was a danger to the republic. Not just a political danger, but a more fundamental danger to our democratic institutions. And in this way, I think Cheney and his supporters see a common thread with the war on terror. That Dick Cheney supported extraordinary measures against terrorism because he said he was defending the United States, and he flipped politically to oppose Donald Trump in the most fierce ways because he saw Donald Trump as a threat closer to home, to the republic.

Dana Taylor:

Susan Cheney was seen by many as being the shadowy figure. He once joked, "Am I the evil genius in the corner that nobody ever sees come out of his hole? It's a nice way to operate, actually." He was joking, but is that how history will remember him?

Susan Page:

Well, one thing that reflected was he actually had a sense of humor. Now, he didn't show it all the time, it was that kind of dry western humor. But he was actually pleased when he was compared to Darth Vader. And he was at one of the Gridiron shows, this annual dinner that the press gives and does skits, where he was portrayed on stage as Darth Vader. He laughed at that. He thought that was pretty funny, and it delighted also his grandchildren.

Now, I'm not sure it's fair to say he really was Darth Vader. No question who was president. George W. Bush was president in making final decisions. And Bush resented the suggestion by some that Dick Cheney was really in charge. But Dick Cheney was indeed a very powerful figure, and one who worked behind the scenes not often in the spotlight. And I think that's what fueled that impression that people had of him.

Dana Taylor:

Finally, Susan, was Dick Cheney the most powerful vice president in US history?

Susan Page:

Absolutely. There's no question about that. And here's one interesting thing, Dana. He was powerful in part because he wasn't ambitious. That is, he didn't have his eye on becoming president. He was very much focused on the job of being vice president, and that meant he paid not too much attention to his own political standing. He was very much focused on what he saw the job at hand as vice president. No vice president has had more power before or since Dick Cheney.

Dana Taylor:

Susan Page is USA TODAY's Washington bureau chief. Thank you so much for taking the time, Susan.

Susan Page:

Thank you.

Dana Taylor:

Thanks to our senior producer, Kaely Monahan, for production assistance. Our executive producer, Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to podcast@Usatoday.com. Thanks for listening. I'm Dana Taylor, I'll be back tomorrow morning with another episode of USA TODAY's, The Excerpt.

This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: Dick Cheney’s power, controversies and legacy | The Excerpt

Reporting by Dana Taylor, USA TODAY / USA TODAY

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